Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

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dickoon
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Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Sun 24 Jun, 2012 2:25 am

A new section recently opened on the Croco-Puzzle web site about a forthcoming team puzzle league, the Croco-Liga, which is set to start in September 2012. The text is written in German, but I have produced a very rough translation, mostly with the help of Google, and berni has suggested that it's more or less correct.

Teams are divided into divisions of sixteen based initially on the average rating of their participants at the site already, with the bottom division containing 4-19 teams in order to permit all teams to play. Teams can consist of up to six players; teams will be unable to properly compete with fewer than four players and will suffer flexibility problems with fewer than the full complement. Teams should have some sort of geographic or affiliation tie, rather than just being "half a dozen solvers who want to be on the same extremely strong stacked team".

The season consists of fifteen rounds and a final promotion/relegation play-off. Rounds consist of matches between pairs of teams, so a 16-team division will be a single round-robin and fixtures for a non-16-team division will be organised through the Swiss system.

Each round lasts two weeks. The league takes breaks for the WPC/WSC week, the winter holidays and the summer holidays. In the first week of each round, twelve puzzle types are published, and each team determines which of its members will solve each puzzle in the second week. No player may solve more than three puzzles, so a four-player team will have all four players solving three puzzles each round and a larger team may have the flexibility to deal with the situation where one or two team members are unavailable, or otherwise to let solvers play to their strengths.

In the second week of each round, each player solves the puzzles which they have been assigned at a time of their choice. For each of the twelve puzzles, the performance of the solvers in each match are compared to each other; whichever solver has made the fewer incorrect submissions wins that puzzle, with the time taken between starting and correctly solving the puzzle breaking a tie (ideally, a zero-zero tie). An error-free slow performance beats a fast performance with any number of errant submissions before the correct one. Ties are possible, most likely to occur if both solvers in a match fail to complete the puzzle.

Whichever team in each match has won more puzzles wins the match; the match will be tied if the two teams win the same number of puzzles. Winning a match earns three league points; a tied match awards one league point to each team. (In a Swiss system division with an odd number of teams, the odd team that does not have a match earns two league points.) At the end of the season, the bottom two teams in each division swap with the top two teams of the division below, with the third bottom team defending its place in the upper division through a play-off with the third team in the division below. (Berni has since suggested that the team in the higher division will retain its place if the play-off match is tied.)

Accordingly, playing in the league commits you only to solving no more than three puzzles every two weeks, and each team gets to assign certain puzzle types to people who particularly enjoy solving them. berni will generate the puzzles by hand, but suggests on the LMD forum that the standard will be about the same level as puzzles in the finals of the German Championships.

In conclusion, I think this looks tremendous. Looking at the sign-up list there are teams from Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Japan, China, the Czech Republic and Serbia as well as different parts of Germany. I know of at least seven UK solvers who are interested in being on a team (croco-puzzle users Dataman, detuned, dickoon, erika, puzzlemad, PuzzleScot and rodders, in alphabetical order) and you can't get seven solvers into a six-person team, so it seems likely that there will be at least two UK teams - and "first come, first served" seems a very undignified way to work out who misses out when there's no good reason why even one of us should do so. Anyone interested in helping the UK get to two reasonably full teams?

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driv4r
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Sun 24 Jun, 2012 7:02 am

I am interested in joining a team as well.
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drsteve
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by drsteve » Mon 25 Jun, 2012 4:38 pm

I mentioned my interest in the members area post as well, Chris, but possibly after you posted this.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Tue 26 Jun, 2012 9:16 pm

Northern UK and Southern UK teams now exist! If you're interested in taking part, go to the team list page and click on the "Team beitreten" link next to any team you fancy. Some invitations have been splashed out already (the "eingeladen" things) but even if you're seeing this for the first time and want to jump on board, no invitation is necessary.

Don't think I haven't seen that someone has invited kiwijam onto Carpe Noctem! ;) Seeing as he's on the other side of the world from Europe then there is a certain sort of sense to it, but I imagine pretty much any team would be more than happy to have him. There could be a super-strong Southern Hemisphere team with him and some of the top Indian solvers if they were interested, for instance.

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driv4r
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Wed 27 Jun, 2012 12:17 am

Thanks for the invitation!
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by kiwijam » Wed 27 Jun, 2012 4:04 am

Yes, I was talking to one of the Carpe Noctem members who has since invited me to join. And the Night-owls theme seems to fit in with me being awake while you're all asleep.
I haven't been crocopuzzling so much recently, my main aim was to reach a certain final milestone (now very imminent).Trying to concentrate more on pen-and-paper solving when I can right now.
But 2 puzzles per fortnight doesn't sound too strenuous, so I might join in and see how it goes, meet some new puzzlers. I suppose it's a German-speaking team, I'll find out soon enough. Please don't take offence that I'm not in a UK team (this season), I'm still committed to the UKPA really!
Hopefully it'll be a fun and 'social' competition, something a little different for everyone to enjoy. Viel Glück und viel Spaß. ;)

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by berni » Wed 27 Jun, 2012 5:05 pm

kiwijam wrote:But 2 puzzles per fortnight doesn't sound too strenuous, so I might join in and see how it goes, meet some new puzzlers. I suppose it's a German-speaking team, I'll find out soon enough.
You're in a team with the sister of uvo! ;)

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Wed 27 Jun, 2012 7:07 pm

berni wrote:You're in a team with the sister of uvo! ;)
Mmm. I saw a Voigt name that I didn't recognise here and was wondering! It's scary how strong an Ulrich / Roland / Ingrid team would be, even if with only three members they would have to skip three puzzles every match...

I have a suspicion there are some other interesting teams whose links and commonalities I do not properly understand, not speaking German. I have a guess that the team Croco Schanell might be naming themselves after fashion designer Coco Chanel with a pun on the word schnell ("fast"); are all its members female? Likewise I'm not so sure about what the link is between the "B&H&Gs" team is, or what the " Ü45" reference for team Croc au vin is.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by berni » Thu 28 Jun, 2012 9:38 am

dickoon wrote:I have a guess that the team Croco Schanell might be naming themselves after fashion designer Coco Chanel
This is correct. ;) But I think (I'm not 100% sure) that it has nothing to do with "schnell". "Schanell" is just the way, a german who does not know about french would write "chanel".
are all its members female?
No. Lupo isn't.
Likewise I'm not so sure about what the link is between the "B&H&Gs" team is
I don't understand that too. Seems to be a non-german team(?).
or what the "Ü45" reference for team Croc au vin is.
Ü stands for "Über" which means "older than" in this case.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Thu 28 Jun, 2012 12:42 pm

kiwijam wrote:I haven't been crocopuzzling so much recently, my main aim was to reach a certain final milestone (now very imminent).
(Presumably?) speaking of which, many congratulations on earning a promotion to second dan! I'm very, very impressed. *thumbs up*

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by kiwijam » Thu 28 Jun, 2012 10:48 pm

berni wrote: You're in a team with the sister of uvo! ;)
Wow, I am? That is a talented family. I don't even know which one she is :lol:, but Google tells me that she is good at chess. These crocopuzzle names make everything very anonymous - I guess I'll learn more about my team once we start.
dickoon wrote: speaking of which, many congratulations on earning a promotion to second dan! I'm very, very impressed. *thumbs up*
Thanks Chris, I'm quite pleased to finally get there. I think this is likely to be my final promotion though, little mistakes are becoming very costly...

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Wed 11 Jul, 2012 10:36 am

Berni is testing the code out by giving all league participants a chance to practice the Croco-Liga interface with a test league over the next week or two, though using computer-generated rather than hand-generated puzzle - and, if I understand correctly, performance on the test league won't affect your rating though performance on the real leagues will. You will notice some small changes to the Croco web pages regarding this.

Still space to join the UK teams if this is of interest!

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by berni » Thu 12 Jul, 2012 1:32 pm

dickoon wrote:Berni is testing the code out by giving all league participants a chance to practice the Croco-Liga interface with a test league over the next week or two, though using computer-generated rather than hand-generated puzzle - and, if I understand correctly, performance on the test league won't affect your rating though performance on the real leagues will.
Indeed, the rating will only temporarily be affected; after the test is over, the changes will be removed.

The latest note on CP tells you, that you need to join the league (click on "Team anmelden" in the Teamliste), to participate in the test league. This will be the same with the normal league in september. During "Sommerpause" you can undo this, whenever you like to, so I recommend to do it early, because if you forget to do it, the team might suffer for several years (it has to start in the last leaque and find it's way up to the place where it belongs).

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 3:02 pm

Hey, I just checked the league and noticed I've been assigned Camp and Stations. I quite like Camp and I have my 5th highest rating in it but if possible I would like to avoid Stations as I've done really poorly in it so far (rating of 2 after 3 solved). Of those that are used in the league I would prefer Sudoku or Comparison Sudoku. If those are not available then ABC Box or Fillomino (in that order).
Or you think it doesn't matter as it's only the test phase?
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by detuned » Tue 17 Jul, 2012 12:12 pm

The assignments were completely random. On seeing that we were playing the Japanese team, I thought that that I'd assign the sudoku to myself because I thought I might be able to avoid a complete whitewash playing those. On the other hand I'm not entirely sure the times I just posted will be good enough to beat Hideaki and Kota. Oh well - puzzle assignment is probably something we should talk about properly for the next match. I'm not sure it'll make all that much difference against the Japanese!

For those that haven't played yet, your puzzles are waiting for you under the Liga -> Aktiv link.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by afcwarren » Tue 17 Jul, 2012 1:22 pm

[quote="driv4r"]...if possible I would like to avoid Stations... If those are not available then ABC Box or Fillomino (in that order).[quote]

Upon seeing your message yesterday, I swapped my ABC-Box with your Stations. I didn't want to touch anyone else's assignments.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Tue 17 Jul, 2012 4:48 pm

Thanks for that afcwarren! ;)

Also just an idea not sure if it's necessary...but maybe we should have a private way (i.e. not public forum topic) for discussing who solves what and maybe give tips to each other on how to solve, tactics etc. Maybe not essential now during the test phase but in autumn during the main league...

EDIT: Actually noticed the mini-chat thing under Liga>Team, so I guess that would do the trick, not sure how exactly it works though :mrgreen:
OK, tested it and can confirm it's working, just type into the last box below mini-chat, press enter and voila.

EDIT 2: Our opponents have only question marks in places of times, so I guess they haven't solved anything?
I made my personal bests in both Camp and ABC-Box, though they were admittedly relatively easy too :)

EDIT 3: Well, that was the case indeed! What an easy win for us: 20:4 :D Probably next opponent won't give it away that easily though...
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by PuzzleScot » Tue 17 Jul, 2012 10:56 pm

I'm missing something, as clearly are others. Where exactly are the puzzles we are meant to solve? (and when?)
(Post URLs directly please)

Looking at http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/spieltag.php, it appears Northern UK (for example) have lost a match (or 2) by not participating. eg. http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/begegn ... 1=28&t2=33 shows only dickoon from our team knew where the puzzles were, and http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/begegn ... 1=30&t2=33 shows that puzzlemad found them for day 2.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Tue 17 Jul, 2012 11:06 pm

Hey, go to Liga > Spieltag (http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/spieltag.php) and then click Details next to your Meeting.
Also go to Active (http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/aktiv.php) to see the standings of current round etc.

But at the moment 2nd round matches have ended and 3rd round mapping phase is on, so you can't probably see much before 19th when 3rd round match phase starts.

EDIT: You can also see detailed previous round pairings and results under Spieltag (Round) if you change the drop-down menu option on top but I think you've already found that.

EDIT 2: Oh, and here's the shcedule (Liga > Zeitplan) in case you haven't found it yet: http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/zeitplan.php.
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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by drsteve » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 6:42 am

PuzzleScot wrote:I'm missing something, as clearly are others. Where exactly are the puzzles we are meant to solve? (and when?)
(Post URLs directly please)

Looking at http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/spieltag.php, it appears Northern UK (for example) have lost a match (or 2) by not participating. eg. http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/begegn ... 1=28&t2=33 shows only dickoon from our team knew where the puzzles were, and http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/begegn ... 1=30&t2=33 shows that puzzlemad found them for day 2.
I missed them too, Alan. Maybe Team North needs a captain to prompt us to solve things when available.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by berni » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 6:50 am

PuzzleScot wrote:I'm missing something, as clearly are others. Where exactly are the puzzles we are meant to solve? (and when?)
(Post URLs directly please)
http://www.croco-puzzle.com/Liga/aktiv.php

As a side note: For testing purpose I canceled the results of the whole 2nd day; they have to be done again. You'll find them in the section "Außergewöhnliche Aufgaben" (extraordinary tasks).

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by PuzzleScot » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 9:09 am

Thanks Berni (and driv4r). My German's not as good as I thought it was...
drsteve wrote:I missed them too, Alan. Maybe Team North needs a captain to prompt us to solve things when available.
Nominate dickoon!

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by rodders » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 9:16 am

Southern team - I've been trying to start a discussion on tactics for this next round of puzzles in the mini-chat area, although it's rather difficult as the amount of characters you can write is quite limited!

If everyone wants to state their preferences there though, I'm happy to have a go at redistributing them more tactically than the random assignment, although I'm not around after about 4pm today.

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by dickoon » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 12:29 pm

I have a suspicion that I have been pushing the Croco-Liga hard enough on this forum already to the point where it's put some potential participants off taking part, which is why I deliberately mentioned the test league only once and left it at that. Nevertheless, it's a good way to practice with the interface and I've enjoyed things so far. It's an open question as to how best to discuss matters (e.g. puzzle assignments for upcoming rounds) with team-mates; the mini-chat is, indeed, mini, but there's always a forum like this, or there's e-mail. Speaking of which, Northerners, I've replied to Liane's e-mail with a couple of suggested swaps.

(Still room on the Northern team if people want to join the fun!)

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Re: Croco-Liga team competition, starting in September 2012

Post by driv4r » Wed 18 Jul, 2012 4:18 pm

OK, gotta say this mini-chat is slightly annoying (if typing long text)! :x

Firstly, you don't know where's the cut-off point, so you type a long text and then only small part of it will be posted and you need to copy the whole text and then shorten it etc. to not lose the text you already typed.

Secondly, you can't enter long enough text.

Thirdly, text disappears from the top of the chat window and it could be important (I mean messages others have posted earlier) :!:
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