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Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 4:48 pm
by sknight
drsteve wrote:I take back everything I said about the Schwer Heyawake being a nasty puzzle. May I introduce you to today's Schwer Hitori? Nastier than an extremely nasty thing indeed...
Yeah, and after your comments about the Heyawake being a "pig", all I could think was "Apparently it's Bacon Week on Croco-puzzle. Normally that would be a good thing...". And then I started humming the Beatles song "Piggies" while grinding out the Hitori.

Have you seen the piggy puzzles with their crisp white cells
You can solve them after dinner, swearing "Bloody Hells"...


I felt pretty good when I noticed something like "123 .... 13" in a couple rows/columns where you know the 2 has to be white since if it were black it would force adjacent black squares elsewhere. I was thinking to myself "Aha! That's just the sort of sneaky logic that should provide a break!". And then it never actually went anywhere. Always a bad sign when my final, correct answer is about half orange-colored.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 7:05 pm
by motris
sknight wrote: I felt pretty good when I noticed something like "123 .... 13" in a couple rows/columns where you know the 2 has to be white since if it were black it would force adjacent black squares elsewhere. I was thinking to myself "Aha! That's just the sort of sneaky logic that should provide a break!". And then it never actually went anywhere. Always a bad sign when my final, correct answer is about half orange-colored.
I had the same experience of going deep into my arsenal of tricks and getting white cells that still didn't matter. This unfortunately was a Hitori where really just marking all whites that must be white by uniqueness (unforced by another number) had to be done first, to then use uniqueness-like thinking again to progress to the solution. Or you can just guess.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 10:50 am
by detuned
sknight wrote:Always a bad sign when my final, correct answer is about half orange-colored.
I was quite pleased with my multi-coloured effort - one to fill out the easy squares, as well as the uniqueness squares, the others to play with what felt like it might force a solution. I reckon it has half a chance at a Turner prize. I was even more pleased to be able to solve one of these harder puzzles today via constructive logic for a change!

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 1:20 pm
by drsteve
detuned wrote:
sknight wrote:Always a bad sign when my final, correct answer is about half orange-colored.
I was quite pleased with my multi-coloured effort - one to fill out the easy squares, as well as the uniqueness squares, the others to play with what felt like it might force a solution. I reckon it has half a chance at a Turner prize. I was even more pleased to be able to solve one of these harder puzzles today via constructive logic for a change!
So far for me, only the Heyawake and the Hitori have really had to be hammered into submission.

STOP PRESS: Today's Schwer Sudoku is an absolute beast, for me at least.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 2:15 pm
by drsteve
OK, a general question about the scoring

Today's fun Laser puzzle - I did it in 26 mins + 2 Fehlversuch gaining +7 in the rating

Rodders did it in 1 hour and a bit, but gained +9 in his rating, despite him being above me in the ratings.

So my question basically is, huh? How are these scores worked out? Am I penalised for the Fehlversuchs?

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 3:10 pm
by motris
drsteve wrote:OK, a general question about the scoring

Today's fun Laser puzzle - I did it in 26 mins + 2 Fehlversuch gaining +7 in the rating

Rodders did it in 1 hour and a bit, but gained +9 in his rating, despite him being above me in the ratings.

So my question basically is, huh? How are these scores worked out? Am I penalised for the Fehlversuchs?
Each Fehlversuch is eventually penalized the value of "median time of all players without any Fehlversuch", not 5 minutes. So with 2 Fehlversuche and that median time likely between thirty minutes to an hour, you earned enough in time penalties so your final time will be slower than Rodders. I'm not in love with how Fehlversuche scale on very difficult puzzles, but that should answer your question.

The final value of the penalty will be visible tomorrow in Technische Daten. It's the Strafzeit pro Fehlversuch.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 3:54 pm
by drsteve
motris wrote:
drsteve wrote:OK, a general question about the scoring

Today's fun Laser puzzle - I did it in 26 mins + 2 Fehlversuch gaining +7 in the rating

Rodders did it in 1 hour and a bit, but gained +9 in his rating, despite him being above me in the ratings.

So my question basically is, huh? How are these scores worked out? Am I penalised for the Fehlversuchs?
Each Fehlversuch is eventually penalized the value of "median time of all players without any Fehlversuch", not 5 minutes. So with 2 Fehlversuche and that median time likely between thirty minutes to an hour, you earned enough in time penalties so your final time will be slower than Rodders. I'm not in love with how Fehlversuche scale on very difficult puzzles, but that should answer your question.

The final value of the penalty will be visible tomorrow in Technische Daten. It's the Strafzeit pro Fehlversuch.
Thanks for explaining that, Tom - that means I'm penalised roughly an extra hour!!! Wonderful.

Is there a reason for this seemingly arbitrary penalty? It seems rather harsh to me...

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 4:10 pm
by berni
drsteve wrote:
motris wrote:
drsteve wrote:Is there a reason for this seemingly arbitrary penalty? It seems rather harsh to me...
Well. In normal contest, when handing in a wrong solution, one gets zero points. I felt this to be a little bit too crude and therefore searched for a way to punish a "Fehlversuch" less heavy. A constant penalty, like the 5 minutes used in the highscoretable is problematic: when the puzzle is a fast one, it's almost the same like having not solved the puzzle at all and when it's a slow one, there is almost no penalty at all. Therefore the penalty had to reflect somehow the time, people use to solve this puzzle. With this in mind, the average time needed seemed (and still seems) quite natural to me.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 4:20 pm
by sknight
drsteve wrote: So far for me, only the Heyawake and the Hitori have really had to be hammered into submission.

STOP PRESS: Today's Schwer Sudoku is an absolute beast, for me at least.
The hard Sudoku took me quite a long time, but was a matter of steady logical deduction and the usual sorts of sudoku strategies.
I would say for example that the Kropki and Japanese Sums were similar in that they were pretty tough, but had a nice logical flow to them.
Both the Hitori and Heyawake felt like I was beating the puzzle to death with a shovel. No trail of logical breadcrumbs left by a designer, no beautiful hidden structure, no joy in solving.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 9:05 pm
by drsteve
sknight wrote:
drsteve wrote: So far for me, only the Heyawake and the Hitori have really had to be hammered into submission.

STOP PRESS: Today's Schwer Sudoku is an absolute beast, for me at least.
The hard Sudoku took me quite a long time, but was a matter of steady logical deduction and the usual sorts of sudoku strategies.
I would say for example that the Kropki and Japanese Sums were similar in that they were pretty tough, but had a nice logical flow to them.
Both the Hitori and Heyawake felt like I was beating the puzzle to death with a shovel. No trail of logical breadcrumbs left by a designer, no beautiful hidden structure, no joy in solving.
Finally done it, but did need to print it out to get to the bottom of it. You're right, it's nowhere near as awkward as the Hitori and Heyawake

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 20 Apr, 2011 9:07 pm
by drsteve
berni wrote: Well. In normal contest, when handing in a wrong solution, one gets zero points. I felt this to be a little bit too crude and therefore searched for a way to punish a "Fehlversuch" less heavy. A constant penalty, like the 5 minutes used in the highscoretable is problematic: when the puzzle is a fast one, it's almost the same like having not solved the puzzle at all and when it's a slow one, there is almost no penalty at all. Therefore the penalty had to reflect somehow the time, people use to solve this puzzle. With this in mind, the average time needed seemed (and still seems) quite natural to me.
When you point out that it's better than zero, I see your point, Berni. Thanks for the clarification

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Thu 21 Apr, 2011 3:40 pm
by Janix
Hi guys

Fascinating discussions on the minutiae of this tournament, however, the volume of posts has unbalanced this thread. Admin, can we please move this thread to its own section, and then topics on this tournament can be sub-threaded (if such a word exists).

Thanks Ken

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 8:12 am
by drsteve
Ken wrote:Hi guys

Fascinating discussions on the minutiae of this tournament, however, the volume of posts has unbalanced this thread. Admin, can we please move this thread to its own section, and then topics on this tournament can be sub-threaded (if such a word exists).

Thanks Ken
Unbalanced in what way, Ken? This has always been a meandering thread concerning both the croc rules and requests for individual walkthroughs. Not sure why the Easter calendar has tipped the balance.

I do second your request for a Croco-Puzzle area of the forum - it seems to be one of the healthiest areas of discussion, with separate threads for rules, etc. It does seem to be spread across two or three categories at the moment.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 9:16 am
by Janix
Steve

Err, by unbalanced I mean 17 pages of comment, compared to a maximum of just nine posts in any other topic - over 80% of the posts, etc., etc.

Not being able to compete in Crocopuzzles yet means I get a bit disappointed that new posts invariably do not now lead to a new puzzle decomposition for instance, rather an update on the machinations of the UKPA contest and the fiendishness of some of the Crocopuzzles in general.

A separate thread would then allow analysis of Crocopuzzle types with sub-threads for comments amongst participants of the current UKPA tournament.

Yes, it's Easter (not sure what that has to do with the timing of my comment?!) and the family with i/n + printer are coming to our place so not sure if I can go there on the Sunday evening again, stay over to do the Sudoku contest, then come back on the Monday as we are flying back to blighty that day - the wife will not be happy.

Ken

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 2:14 pm
by ronald
Regarding croco-puzzle:

Nice work DavidMcN! Decisively overtook me on today's Killersudoku to become top UK competitor. (though sf2l still rides a little higher, for the moment!)
But it's not over yet... I hope to have a battle/stay close for some time ;)

Ronald

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 7:38 pm
by drsteve
Ken, just to clarify, the Easter Calendar is a current competition on the Croco-Puzzle site, which has generated some discussion due to the hard (Schwer) puzzles being, at times, more than a little challenging.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:10 pm
by detuned
Probably won't be able to say this too often, but I've just done an uvo :roll:

...with any luck the median time for that fillomino will be pretty quick so as not to be overly punishing.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 2:42 am
by motris
I can only imagine everyone is leaving a single cell blank on this one. Seriously, 91 solvers now and 52 made errors! Crazy.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 5:54 am
by drsteve
motris wrote:I can only imagine everyone is leaving a single cell blank on this one. Seriously, 91 solvers now and 52 made errors! Crazy.
Not spoiling anything, but I almost did the same thing. There seemed to be a natural direction to the solve to me which did leave one single cell away from the pattern to be missed. Odd that so many people missed it, though.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 10:01 am
by PuzzleScot
I'm in that club too for today's fillomino! Probably only fair that I didn't see the warning bells here first.
Now 143/239 have fehlversuched so far! - some kind of record?

BTW, I agree with other sentiments regarding a separate area for croco. I am thinking as a subforum of Puzzle Links though.
Even if that happens, the Uberraschungsraetsel thread will still stretch to 10+ pages, so it would be wise to start new conversations on that subject within that forum. What would other threads comprise? Easter contest? UK Croco Ladder? Well, wouldn't those appear under contests as they do now anyway?
Thoughts welcomed.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 10:55 am
by drsteve
PuzzleScot wrote:I'm in that club too for today's fillomino! Probably only fair that I didn't see the warning bells here first.
Now 143/239 have fehlversuched so far! - some kind of record?
Well, I'll put my hand up and say that I probably would have felv'ed up as well if I hadn't seen the comment here first. So thanks everyone else for the good score today.

With this in mind, perhaps we shouldn't discuss puzzles until the day after - even comments like "wow, what a clever shortcut" could constitute a hint for some.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 1:09 pm
by dickoon
Today's Ue-puzzle 1: I tend to look at the highscore page before I decide whether or not I would enjoy spending my time on either or both of that day's puzzles, and I saw from the high score table that there were a heckuva lot of Fehlversuches on an otherwise swift puzzle. That's a pretty clear sort of indication that the jig might be up.
PuzzleScot wrote:What would other threads comprise? Easter contest? UK Croco Ladder? Well, wouldn't those appear under contests as they do now anyway?
I'd have thought that such threads had the Croco-Puzzle forum nature more strongly than they had the Puzzle Competition forum nature, so to speak, though it's definitely arguable either way. I'd even go as far as to put the Croco-Puzzle rules translations thread into the Croco-Puzzle forum, on the grounds that while rulesets and rules translations are generic, rules translations featuring Croco-Puzzle keystrokes are pretty Croco-Puzzle-specific.

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 3:43 pm
by ronald
It would be cool and sensible to have a croco-puzzle forum, although I'd have several concerns that might be worth considering:

1) the croco-puzzle threads seem to be doing fine as they are - does change come with a danger of killing the fluid discussion?
2) moving the croco-puzzle threads (particularly this one) may damage a google search for those (can a link redirect be provided?)
3) please, please don't make a sub-forum! If croco-puzzle is the most popular topic on the forum, it deserves a front page link, rather than a buried link.

Ronald

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Wed 27 Apr, 2011 4:49 pm
by PuzzleScot
Thanks Ronald, good response - I think you've echoed my subconscious reticence to creating a croco-only forum.
I feel at the moment that the only thing wrong is the title of this thread - it should be 'Croco Daily Puzzle', which is indeed only relevant for a day or so, therefore the most recent posts are the only relevant ones.
This started as simply a link to a great site, but has grown beyond its intended purpose.
In fact, it should probably be reincarnated in the 'General Puzzle Discussion' area. (I can lock this thread, and point elsewhere for subsequent discussion)
Obviously there can be many concurrent threads, which would satisfy the demand requested, retaining the rules and contests in their own 'correct' areas.
The reason I don't feel it would fit in as a main forum area is simply that I don't think it conforms to the Association's aims, although it is welcome to be discussed since it fosters puzzling among an English-speaking community. I'm open to concensus opinion though.
Thoughts?

Re: croco-puzzle

Posted: Thu 28 Apr, 2011 12:24 am
by sknight
So, now that the puzzle is over, back quickly to the Fehl-omino from yesterday. Show of hands on the missing digit. Two up near the top center?